Curse

fowlero · Aug 04, 2011, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Rank is not an issue. It's been the same for 6 years and every player with rank has gotten past the discrimination. Whilst arguably harder to do now than in the past, it is not that difficult to do if you apply yourself and are competent/not a dick. Networking gets you right past it and it really isn't that difficult if you accept help/ask for help from the right people (there are a lot of wrong people to ask).

Rank discrimination becoming so problematic to new players is not the problem, but a symptom of the problem. That problem is dwindling population as caused partially by the games age, but also by the pile of crap that is the poorly balanced updates Anet has implemented the past few years.

This population decrease causes an unbalance in the skill levels of teams facing each other, instead of good/mediocre/bad teams facing equally skilled teams on a regular basis, they more regularly face skills above their skill level and get stomped, disheartened and eventually stop playing.

This leads to the current situation, where there are barely enough inexperienced players to pair up with each other into a team, let alone face another inexperienced team and actually have a chance of winning.

Allowing people to get their rank easier changes nothing in this dynamic.

To even attempt to start to fix it you need an influx of players, whilst a rank system change up may change that it's just not necessary. Players who play only to get rank will not play for long (hence the dwindled population).

The game needs to be fun and rewarding to sustain a population, add yet more incentives for playing HA. I'd suggest balance the game, but that's a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing pipedream, and a snails pace one at that.

GvG has no rank reward for i'd guess about 50% (possibly more since the reset) of it's active playerbase, yet with the recent incentives added and the way guild ranks work inexperienced teams can still press Enter Battle with a relatively fair chance of winning (assuming they've done some minimal build preparation, Build Wars).

This is what's missing for inexperienced players in HA. This is the problem. Rank discrimination is amplified to the point that it's perceived as the issue because of this, when it is merely the symptom.

It happens to any old competitive game. I mean look at Starcraft, DotA, you're expected to lose for a long time before even coming close to having a chance of winning because of this exact same issue. At least Starcraft has the joy of actually being every balanced, however.

Granted what i've said doesn't present much of a solution, matchmaking by rank wouldn't fix this. All is needed is a balanced population, but that requires a massive influx of players.

lursey · Aug 04, 2011, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

influx of players

can the influx of players be the pvers?

if yes.. then how to make them all play pvp together, and stay as pvp without considering rewards/title/rank is their main aim?

if not.. then probably the zaishen combat has already been driving the existing pvp mob from one format to another through rewards, but those "pvpers" are still doing that for the reward, and not really actually enjoying format...you still need some other factor to make them stay on a higher format...say how do you transform a ra player into a ha/gvg player who doesn't consider reward is the main aim?...

Mireles · Aug 04, 2011, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

Rank is not an issue. It's been the same for 6 years and every player with rank has gotten past the discrimination. Whilst arguably harder to do now than in the past, it is not that difficult to do if you apply yourself and are competent/not a dick. Networking gets you right past it and it really isn't that difficult if you accept help/ask for help from the right people (there are a lot of wrong people to ask).

Rank discrimination becoming so problematic to new players is not the problem, but a symptom of the problem. That problem is dwindling population as caused partially by the games age, but also by the pile of crap that is the poorly balanced updates Anet has implemented the past few years.

How are you going to say rank is not an issue then in your next paragraph say its problimatic... Sorry people discriminate on the basis of rank... not skill bars or how well the update went... If the updates were that bad people wouldn't play pvp all together... Its the the highly discrimitive formats that have fallen problimatic... Unless you can explain why people discriminate on the basis of bad updates... your statement does not make since, because there are players that want to play but don't because they cant get a group. Players may have quit because of bad updates, but now theres hardly any players left to quit... The problem lies in no new players coming in. Im fairly confident that if you ask a pve-er why he doesn't PVP.... you will get the answer relating to rank discrimination than anets crappy updates.... This very thread should make that abundantly clear.

Rank did not always exist... It was super easy to get a group for HoH (Tombs) without even having to ask before the edition of fame and faction late in guild wars first year. People started asking others to show emote because the title didn't exist yet and it took longer to get a group... then they added the title and it began to take hours to get a group... eventually it reached the point that new players coming in was outwighed by players abandoning the format... This degenerative trend continued and increased PUG grouping times to the point they became non-existant.... When many pvp regulars got banned for the wide spread rupt botting, that was the kill shot for HA....

So Rank is an issue its just taken about 6 years to see the final results... if it it was age and decrease in overall population it would be more apparent in other areas of the game.

Give people a something to show for there participation/learning effort that will help them over come discrimination... you will see more people coming in because they have something to show for thier effort instead of just being stuck at square 1.

*lemming* · Aug 04, 2011, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Ask yourself why you think rank discrimination exists.

Also, fame/rank have existed since day 1.

lursey · Aug 05, 2011, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Ask yourself why you think rank discrimination exists.

Also, fame/rank have existed since day 1.

rank discrimination goes both way...

a) a guy want to join but thinks he is not good enough because of no rank..
b) a guy doesn't want an unrank to join because he thinks unrank is no good...

but these only solely based on the perception of rank means good....

my opinion is you can't remove rank altogether, because if it is a competition, you need something extra for players to compete for, if not, it will become a game of competing for nothing, reducing competitiveness.....

remembering the first double fame weekends, it drove a lot of lessor competitive players to ha.. but it pissed some high rank pvpers, because their rank was harder to get..

therefore I prefer more on increasing the base pve competitiveness by pvp in pve button than reducing the whole structure of pvp competitiveness through removing, or reducing rank importance.

Mireles · Aug 05, 2011, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Ask yourself why you think rank discrimination exists.

Also, fame/rank have existed since day 1.

The way i remember it....

Fame used to be just a number in your hero panel... not as rank title... fame effected only as emote.... which most people at the time didn't even know wtf it was when u did that emote....

Rank discrimination exists because of the desire to be efficient at earning title and rewards (desire to achieve wins), because the focus is largely for rewards.... am i wrong here?

I'm not saying discrimination is the cause of the problem and must be eliminated...

I am saying the current mathematical determinant (rank) of that discrimination is flawed and largely responsible but not the sole reason for the inactivity of HA and has hindered the activeness of other formats....

Feel free to correct me (on a past factual basis reference) if I'm wrong... if you want people to flock to pvp... you need to make rank based on (in a proportional addition to wins) completing objectives and/or kills in HA and kills in RA earn credit against discrimination... This will place less importance on wins which is important to drawing in new blood... that way veterans can kick the crap outa new players and they both leave with a since of accomplishment.... the new players having gained some experience, learning, and gaining some ground on the discrimination front... The vets still reap all the rewards they worked so hard to refined their team to gain.... nobody really loses in that situation and both parties continue playing having gained ground in pursuit of a goal...

I haven't heard anyone say this is a bad idea.... i would love to hear from you if you can think of any reason not to implement the idea.... please make it related to the idea, instead of defending rank discrimination in hypocritical or contradictory statements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

rank discrimination goes both way...

a) a guy want to join but thinks he is not good enough because of no rank..
b) a guy doesn't want an unrank to join because he thinks unrank is no good...

but these only solely based on the perception of rank means good....

my opinion is you can't remove rank altogether, because if it is a competition, you need something extra for players to compete for, if not, it will become a game of competing for nothing, reducing competitiveness.....

remembering the first double fame weekends, it drove a lot of lessor competitive players to ha.. but it pissed some high rank pvpers, because their rank was harder to get..

therefore I prefer more on increasing the base pve competitiveness by pvp in pve button than reducing the whole structure of pvp competitiveness through removing, or reducing rank importance.

I'm confident point B happens in way more excess than point A...

and your right it is just a perception... but its a wildly used perception...

Your right you shouldn't remove rank all together.... there should be a means of discrimination when you talking about competition... but you need to give people a more reasonable means to over com that... at-least in my opinion

changing pve to fix pvp just sounds like a horrible idea because you would be killing the casual part of the game... and the objective is to sell copies of the game, not make gw into a sport.... sorry man don't care how much you change pve.... if you don't change pvp... ain't nothing going to change because even when 7 heroes and consumable didn't exist... pvp was in a degenerative state people won't be forced to pvp they will just quit and find something else to play or exclude that part of the game.... and it is far to risky for arena net to do such a thing.

lursey · Aug 05, 2011, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

I'm confident point B happens in way more excess than point A...

and your right it is just a perception... but its a wildly used perception...

Your right you shouldn't remove rank all together.... there should be a means of discrimination when you talking about competition... but you need to give people a more reasonable means to over com that... at-least in my opinion

changing pve to fix pvp just sounds like a horrible idea because you would be killing the casual part of the game... and the objective is to sell copies of the game, not make gw into a sport.... sorry man don't care how much you change pve.... if you don't change pvp... ain't nothing going to change because even when 7 heroes and consumable didn't exist... pvp was in a degenerative state people won't be forced to pvp they will just quit and find something else to play or exclude that part of the game.... and it is far to risky for arena net to do such a thing.

a) happens a lot outside the pvp arena, only you see b) is more because a) wouldn't step their foot into pvp arena due to that reason, and making b) feel more superficially excessive than a) in the arena..

I say that because, most of the time, when I tried to ask a pver to pvp.. they will give me the a) reason, and they are not even tried in the arena yet.....

pvp in pve button will not affect their normal hero/consumable play.. just if they use them, their reward is lessor, something pve should be concerning more.....what I'm trying to do is to transfer that elitism burden back to pve, and maintaining the competitiveness in pvp.... than always saying it is only the pvper fault..

at the end of the day, the pver will not get any less reward, because if they don't use the pvp in pve button, it is just the same as they are not getting the pvp rewards like now if they don't play pvp...

Mireles · Aug 05, 2011, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

a) happens a lot outside the pvp arena, only you see b) is more because a) wouldn't step their foot into pvp arena due to that reason, and making b) feel more excessive than a) in the arena..

I say that because, most of the time, when I tried to ask a pver to pvp.. they will give me the a) reason, and they are not even tried in the arena yet.....

pvp in pve button will not affect their normal hero/consumable play.. just if they use them, their reward is lessor.....what I'm trying to do is to transfer that elitism burden back to pve, and maintaining the competitiveness in pvp.... than always saying it is only the pvper fault..

at the end of the day, the pver will not get any less reward, because if they don't use the pvp in pve button, it is just the same as they are not getting the pvp rewards like now if they don't play pvp...

Well there is no way to prove the the occurrences of point A and B... but i find your point plausible...

I think its a very bad idea to burden pve with more elitism... people come to play pve in alternative to pvp elitism.... but that is just because i believe having a casual aspect to the game is important to sustain the competitive part of the game.

If you directly penalize people for using consumables/heros other than the cost it took to purchase them... it would be very different, and i don't understand how this would make people want to pvp.

lursey · Aug 05, 2011, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Well there is no way to prove the the occurrences of point A and B... but i find your point plausible...

I think its a very bad idea to burden pve with more elitism... people come to play pve in alternative to pvp elitism.... but that is just because i believe having a casual aspect to the game is important to sustain the competitive part of the game.

If you directly penalize people for using consumables/heros other than the cost it took to purchase them... it would be very different, and i don't understand how this would make people want to pvp.

the causal part of the game will still remain...just like normal mode and HM.. players can still play the normal mode....does it make the game less causal once they introduced HM? I think rather it puts more depth into the game.

It is actually more punishing indirectly to pve people by adding strongbox...if they don't pvp.... something pver can't really have that chance to control the reward by themselves from playing pve directly to earn it..

if there is a pvp in pve button.. at least it will help them to gain competitiveness/confidence.. than having the thought of using consumable/pve skill/heroes/pulling in pvp, pvper will see that pver are worthier after they played pvp in pve and let them into the group more than what it is now, and most importantly without the need to reduce the dynamics/competitiveness in pvp...which pvper loves and strike for

The Drunkard · Aug 05, 2011, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Exactly how does removing cons and adding more goodies to PvE teach people how to qknock, the importance of cancel-casting, or splits? The reason there is elitism in pvp is that more experienced players don't want the PvE mentality, because the formats are so different. Confidence in one's pvp's ability does not come from doing Zaishen challenges, it comes from the experience of pvp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vezoth

You guys are talking about PvP and the difficulty to play with other random people, that is the biggest problem to short and compeitive games like areans, HA, etc.

When you look at longer games that are random (FA and JQ) where you get on random teams with many people it's not really an issue.

The smaller and more compeitive places is where people are fusterated and angry at the pvp system.

The best way to fix it is by fixing it's how it works and that would be WHO you play with and how to get started. By making something extremely popular like GvG and give amazing rewards or cool armor sets (earned only from let's say how far up the ladder you are - to avoid people joining guilds to get the armor(like the gold capes) all you need to do is implement a system where your character would have to contribute so much or something along the lines, it would have to be reformatted obviously) or something else would get PvE players to want to get into PvP too. By making PvP just as popular as PvE you get everyone in GUILDS (who have friends etc.) that would PvP on a regular basis when asked. Then you don't need to deal with all this randomness crap that's irritating everyone like lack of players, title ranks, random groups, playing with bad players etc.

It's all about the structure. World of Warcraft has a good example of this. You have "Battlegrounds" which you can do random or with friends which is similar to FA and JQ. The only differance is "pre-made" groups get queued up with other pre-made groups, assuming PvP was that popular they could split the two groups. Then you have the guild mates who do Arena's together. It all forms around guilds or being a newbie in a guild and making friends.

If you want lots more players, and less irritating system. You need to give people a GREAT reward system and structure things around Guilds, not solo play or playing with randoms. The game is so dead it needs some motivation by ANET.

I agree with this

As for the OP
/notsigned

lursey · Aug 05, 2011, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Exactly how does removing cons and adding more goodies to PvE teach people how to qknock, the importance of cancel-casting, or splits? The reason there is elitism in pvp is that more experienced players don't want the PvE mentality, because the formats are so different. Confidence in one's pvp's ability does not come from doing Zaishen challenges, it comes from the experience of pvp.

I agree totally that experience of pvp must need to earn from pvp, there is no doubt..but the problem is you still have to rely on the population, where that the majority of them is now thinking usage of cons/heroes/pulling/pveskill...(pve mentality)

if there is no population, there is no experience of pvp...

so closing gap between pvp and pver is also important in the sense of population transitioning...

unless you think, puting cons/heroes/pveskill into pvp is possible.. I would rather do the opposite, reducing the cons/heroes/pveskill usage in pve.

The Drunkard · Aug 05, 2011, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

so closing gap between pvp and pver is also important in the sense of population transitioning...

Right, however your idea is to reward pvers to play in pve without cons, which does nothing to solve the problem of elitism in high-end areas.

You want to bring in more pvpers, make pvp interesting. Adding HoM statues will bring in pvpers up until they get the statue, if they even care in the first place.

fowlero · Aug 05, 2011, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

How are you going to say rank is not an issue then in your next paragraph say its problimatic... Sorry people discriminate on the basis of rank... not skill bars or how well the update went... If the updates were that bad people wouldn't play pvp all together... Its the the highly discrimitive formats that have fallen problimatic... Unless you can explain why people discriminate on the basis of bad updates... your statement does not make since, because there are players that want to play but don't because they cant get a group. Players may have quit because of bad updates, but now theres hardly any players left to quit... The problem lies in no new players coming in. Im fairly confident that if you ask a pve-er why he doesn't PVP.... you will get the answer relating to rank discrimination than anets crappy updates.... This very thread should make that abundantly clear.

Apologies it's not that clear, i'm not great at typing out my thoughts coherently. What i meant was that the rank system is not an issue. Rank discrimination (not the rank system itself) has become more of an issue, ONLY because of shrinking population. In a healthy population rank discrimination is not an issue in itself, i mean this game's had rank discrimination for at least 5 years.

You misunderstood my point on skill updates. I'll put it in points, as i didn't mean that they discriminate on skill updates, but bad updates have led to discrimination becoming more of a wall.

Everyone starts out inexperienced at start of the games life
Progressively you get good players, ok players, and bad and/or new players
Rank discrimination begins. People progress through these levels, and wish to team with those of equal levels. As the game has a healthy number of players in each "division" this is not a problem as there are plenty on their level to team with, and have a good chance of facing.
Poor updates begin/age of the game kicks in. Veteran (and some mid, even low) players get pissed off/bored and quit, depleting the top layer of players.
Continuation of this leads to an imbalance in likelihood of facing an equally skilled team, as fewer top teams in mean they face less skilled teams more and stomp them. This means inexperienced teams will face higher skilled teams more regularly, and lose more.
This is not fun for those who don't progress. Causes those in lower levels disinterest in the format.
Vicious cycle without an influx of new players, as unlikely to face those of equal skill level. So they don't want to pair with others of no rank, as their weight down on the team now counts more than previously. Rank discrimination, though forever prevailent throughout the game except at release, becomes an issue.
Increasingly hostile environment to new players, therefore less new players.

This shows how i meant poor updates and general age of the game are the issue.

As lursey said, we have a load of pve'rs some of which willing to try it. If an update were made such that it entices pve players/guilds/alliances to give it a shot in large enough numbers, handfuls of new teams/players will enter which would make the lower end more healthy. Rank discrimination would stop being an issue.

And oh hey, it would actually be fun for them to play because they'll face teams the same skill level a fair number of times. Playing just to get a rank isn't fun, which unfortunately is so many peoples motive (especially in PuG's).

The players you mention who want to play can't get a group, clearly don't want to play that bad. It's not that hard to start your own unranked group and grab some dervtrain from pvx, I did it myself. I'm not saying it'll be quick, you'll start a group up, take ages and probably lose then half the team leaves. Guess what? This has been the case for years.

I'm not pretending that as it is now with less players doesn't make this harder, and hell maybe a rank system change could bring in a few players temporarily, who will then discriminate themselves. But in my opinion it would not sustain an influx as well as creating more incentives to play outside of rank, points on a title bar is an awful reason to want to play a game. I've not given any thought to it, but something like 1 win= 1 strongbox. It worked in GvG, no reason not in HA.

Create an influx of players with increased incentives (and in a dream world, blow the door of unlocks) and discrimination will cease to be a symptom again. There will still be complaints from those who want a free ride with people above their skill level, but that's been the case throughout this games lifetime.

Edit: I just noticed Vezoth's post, he summarises well what i meant when i said you need to encourage large groups into the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vezoth

If you want lots more players, and less irritating system. You need to give people a GREAT reward system and structure things around Guilds, not solo play or playing with randoms. The game is so dead it needs some motivation by ANET.

lursey · Aug 05, 2011, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Right, however your idea is to reward pvers to play in pve without cons, which does nothing to solve the problem of elitism in high-end areas.

You want to bring in more pvpers, make pvp interesting. Adding HoM statues will bring in pvpers up until they get the statue, if they even care in the first place.

if rewarding pvers to play in pve without cons still won't work.. I don't think a HOM statues will work either......if the pve simply doesn't play pvp

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

Apologies it's not that clear, i'm not great at typing out my thoughts coherently. What i meant was that the rank system is not an issue. Rank discrimination (not the rank system itself) has become more of an issue, ONLY because of shrinking population. In a healthy population rank discrimination is not an issue in itself, i mean this game's had rank discrimination for at least 5 years.

You misunderstood my point on skill updates. I'll put it in points, as i didn't mean that they discriminate on skill updates, but bad updates have led to discrimination becoming more of a wall.

Everyone starts out inexperienced at start of the games life
Progressively you get good players, ok players, and bad and/or new players
Rank discrimination begins. People progress through these levels, and wish to team with those of equal levels. As the game has a healthy number of players in each "division" this is not a problem as there are plenty on their level to team with, and have a good chance of facing.
Poor updates begin/age of the game kicks in. Veteran (and some mid, even low) players get pissed off/bored and quit, depleting the top layer of players.
Continuation of this leads to an imbalance in likelihood of facing an equally skilled team, as fewer top teams in mean they face less skilled teams more and stomp them. This means inexperienced teams will face higher skilled teams more regularly, and lose more.
This is not fun for those who don't progress. Causes those in lower levels disinterest in the format.
Vicious cycle without an influx of new players, as unlikely to face those of equal skill level. So they don't want to pair with others of no rank, as their weight down on the team now counts more than previously. Rank discrimination, though forever prevailent throughout the game except at release, becomes an issue.
Increasingly hostile environment to new players, therefore less new players.

This shows how i meant poor updates and general age of the game are the issue.

As lursey said, we have a load of pve'rs some of which willing to try it. If an update were made such that it entices pve players/guilds/alliances to give it a shot in large enough numbers, handfuls of new teams/players will enter which would make the lower end more healthy. Rank discrimination would stop being an issue.

And oh hey, it would actually be fun for them to play because they'll face teams the same skill level a fair number of times. Playing just to get a rank isn't fun, which unfortunately is so many peoples motive (especially in PuG's).

The players you mention who want to play can't get a group, clearly don't want to play that bad. It's not that hard to start your own unranked group and grab some dervtrain from pvx, I did it myself. I'm not saying it'll be quick, you'll start a group up, take ages and probably lose then half the team leaves. Guess what? This has been the case for years.

I'm not pretending that as it is now with less players doesn't make this harder, and hell maybe a rank system change could bring in a few players temporarily, who will then discriminate themselves. But in my opinion it would not sustain an influx as well as creating more incentives to play outside of rank, points on a title bar is an awful reason to want to play a game. I've not given any thought to it, but something like 1 win= 1 strongbox. It worked in GvG, no reason not in HA.

Create an influx of players with increased incentives (and in a dream world, blow the door of unlocks) and discrimination will cease to be a symptom again. There will still be complaints from those who want a free ride with people above their skill level, but that's been the case throughout this games lifetime.

Edit: I just noticed Vezoth's post, he summarises well what i meant when i said you need to encourage large groups into the game.

if playing pvp just for the reward, then it will create farmers...or a lot of red resign teams, flooding the lower level of HA..

playing pvp should not be for the reward...I don't think reward base incentives in pvp can efficiently attract pvers to play pvp...

floor · Aug 05, 2011, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

and I can firmly say that nobody will teach any new player how to play pvp..

This is actually not true, i quite often try and help new players get involved, and teach them things if they want to learn. I know quite a few other better players who will also regularly try and "mentor" newer players. The real problem is that in order to learn, you need to play. I can spend hours or days talking to a new player, trying to explain things, but ultimately he has to be able to play matches in order to practise stuff.

New players have the wrong mentality, and are not willing to do any work for themselves these days. There are actually a lot of new players who want to join GvG/HA, but existing guilds are not looking for players with no experience. Surely then, the logical thing would be for NEW PLAYERS TO FORM NEW GUILDS!!!!! but no, nobody can ever be bothered

. There are a lot of players looking into get pvp, considerably more than many people realise

. Starting up your own guild isnt necessarily that difficult, you just have to not mind the fact that you will initially lose a lot of games. This is part of the learning curve, and its a phase that everybody has been through, and this is where a lot of people give up, quit and go back to PvE. STOP QUITTING FFS!!! Being good takes time and quite a bit of practise (logging in once a week as a casual gamer is probably not going to allow you to learn enough, a regular time investment of at least a few nights a week is probably needed in order to actually learn and practise!)

Once new guilds are formed, new players have somewhere to go and actually play. At this point, top players can go along and guest/teach/mentor (a lot of players are willing to do this) And in this way, new players get better and learn stuff.

What is not going to happen, is that the top players spend all their time trying to teach new players, form new guilds, recruit new people to PvP etc. If you want to get involved in pvp, you have to be prepared to do a lot of this groundwork for yourself. Players are more than willing to guest for a couple of hours of an evening, but new players really have to stop expecting the existing playerbase to give up half of their playtime each week, in order to try and babysit the new guys.

Missing HB · Aug 05, 2011, 03:39 PM // 15:39

There are simply not enough low level + mid level guilds to make beginners learn anything in GvG... Plus, the terrible meta and flux isn't helping really.....

As long as there will be no improvment made in game, nothing will change.... Basically, make an hour where all beginners can fight themselves everyday and strongboxes farmers will say hi...

lursey · Aug 05, 2011, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

This is actually not true, i quite often try and help new players get involved, and teach them things if they want to learn. I know quite a few other better players who will also regularly try and "mentor" newer players. The real problem is that in order to learn, you need to play. I can spend hours or days talking to a new player, trying to explain things, but ultimately he has to be able to play matches in order to practise stuff.

New players have the wrong mentality, and are not willing to do any work for themselves these days. There are actually a lot of new players who want to join GvG/HA, but existing guilds are not looking for players with no experience. Surely then, the logical thing would be for NEW PLAYERS TO FORM NEW GUILDS!!!!! but no, nobody can ever be bothered

. There are a lot of players looking into get pvp, considerably more than many people realise

. Starting up your own guild isnt necessarily that difficult, you just have to not mind the fact that you will initially lose a lot of games. This is part of the learning curve, and its a phase that everybody has been through, and this is where a lot of people give up, quit and go back to PvE. STOP QUITTING FFS!!! Being good takes time and quite a bit of practise (logging in once a week as a casual gamer is probably not going to allow you to learn enough, a regular time investment of at least a few nights a week is probably needed in order to actually learn and practise!)

Once new guilds are formed, new players have somewhere to go and actually play. At this point, top players can go along and guest/teach/mentor (a lot of players are willing to do this) And in this way, new players get better and learn stuff.

What is not going to happen, is that the top players spend all their time trying to teach new players, form new guilds, recruit new people to PvP etc. If you want to get involved in pvp, you have to be prepared to do a lot of this groundwork for yourself. Players are more than willing to guest for a couple of hours of an evening, but new players really have to stop expecting the existing playerbase to give up half of their playtime each week, in order to try and babysit the new guys.

there is nothing really you can teach if you can't bring them in ha into a group fighting other playing with it.. and even if you do, the problem is you are not really playing competitively according to the format, because you are not maximizing your probability to win by grouping the best people..so you will be teaching the wrong stuff..

I think newbie can only learn it by themselves....that is the format of ha..and being competitive....if he/she is not up to that level.. then no one can really teach him/her...

The Drunkard · Aug 06, 2011, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

if rewarding pvers to play in pve without cons still won't work.. I don't think a HOM statues will work either......if the pve simply doesn't play pvp

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So then why are you suggesting it in the first place if you don't agree with it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

3) HOM system, is a way to gw2, but many has already suggested to put more pvp achievement into it.. but does not encourage pver to become more pvp.. because they are just not competitive to play in pvp yet, on the other hand.. encourage pvp playing style in pve area, making another statue or title of pvp play in pve area for them may encourage them to be more competitive..

lursey · Aug 06, 2011, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

So then why are you suggesting it in the first place if you don't agree with it?

rewarding in pve venue...is different from rewarding in pvp venue....

fowlero · Aug 07, 2011, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

if playing pvp just for the reward, then it will create farmers...or a lot of red resign teams, flooding the lower level of HA..

playing pvp should not be for the reward...I don't think reward base incentives in pvp can efficiently attract pvers to play pvp...

Doesn't happen in GvG (to my knowledge), i doubt it'd happen much in HA. It only occured in HB because HB was a 1 person format, and a few other reasons.

Besides, flooding the lower of HA is a bad thing how?

Of the flood, there's bound to be some teams/players that would continue to play properly, and others who'd fast realise that not red resigning is far better. Teams asking for red resign (if any) would just be free wins. I'd be surprised if you often you'd face one willing to resign at all anyway. They're highly likely to face a team wanting to actually play/win and this in itself will discourage it, and encourage people to learn how to actually play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

there is nothing really you can teach if you can't bring them in ha into a group fighting other playing with it.. and even if you do, the problem is you are not really playing competitively according to the format, because you are not maximizing your probability to win by grouping the best people..so you will be teaching the wrong stuff..

I think newbie can only learn it by themselves....that is the format of ha..and being competitive....if he/she is not up to that level.. then no one can really teach him/her...

You're seriously overestimating the skill of an average team in HA. A well coordinated team (read build setup) of say 6 inexperienced players being carried by 2 experienced players can be plenty competitive on early maps.

How are you teaching the wrong stuff by pairing with inexperienced players? That makes no sense at all.

I can see your last point to an extent, a player has to know the basics of PvP before you can actually teach them anything useful sure, but all you need is freely available on the wiki. There's nothing stopping someone better teaching them at all. That said, this is provided they are willing to learn and open to criticism which sadly a lot of new players aren't.